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Persecuted v. Prosecuted?
Wednesday, September 26, 2007
Throughout history, leaders of religious sects have found themselves in legal hot water. Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Tony Alamo and, most recently, Warren Jeffs.
After hearing the news of Jeffs' conviction of being the world-record holder as the creepiest living person, my instant thought was to wonder what his followers were doing to discount the conviction. How would they frame and retell their version of events such that even the very nature of the crimes he had been charged with would be lost in their official histories.
If one looks at the criminal cases against Jesus or Joseph Smith, for example, the official recounting by their followers, their true-believers, you notice that those accounts are suspiciously light on the details of the specific cases made against them. How many devout Christians know what charges Jesus was brought up on before Pontius Pilate? How many would go the extra-step in calling those charges erroneous, without even knowing exactly what they were?
The same holds true with Joseph Smith. How many Mormons can tell you why Smith was jailed in Carthage, IL at the time of his assassination? How many, if asked, would likely take the position that Smith had been wrongfully jailed? I sense that a prevailing opinion is that Smith was repeatedly persecuted and prosecuted for no good reason at all. That there were no grounds for his frequent arrests.
Objectivity in these cases, like the kind we have in the Jeffs case, would probably allow the observer to recognize little bias against the accused on the part of those prosecuting. Given a little objective perspective, one might be able to find that there had probably been more than just cause in all of those cases.
It would be most interesting to me to witness, first-hand, the immediate reaction by Jeffs' followers to news of his conviction. Mostly because most of them probably have not allowed themselves the kind of objectivity required to recognize the kind of common-place criminal he really is. Many, I'm sure, are comparing him to Joseph Smith.
I, for one, couldn't agree with them more. It's my sense that they are alike in more than a few ways.
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delicious | digg | fark | reddit | google | yahoo | Stumble | Talkr | 2226 readsWhy they were jailed
Submitted by Korihor on September 27, 2007 - 8:12am.
I think the common threads for the reason that some of these religious leaders were arrested deserves examination.
* Joseph Smith: Treason; Inciting to riot; Disorderly conduct.
* Warren Jeffs: Sexual conduct with a minor; Conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor; Rape as an accomplice.
* David Koresh: Evidence of historical child physical and sexual abuse.
I think it's interesting that out of the three, Joseph wasn't arrested for conduct relating to a child. I wonder if that's because it's a new catch-all type of charge, that we're more sensitive to issues with abuses of minors, or something else?
I think...
Submitted by Becca (not verified) on September 28, 2007 - 11:41am.
Jesus was charged with claiming to be King of the Jews and that pissed of the Romans who were actually in charge of the Jews at that time.
The point is...
Submitted by Pete on September 28, 2007 - 11:57am.
The point is that we simply don't know. We only have the accounts of a couple of his devout followers published a good number of years after the actual events and then translated and rewritten about a dozen times by even more zealot, devout followers.
Hardly an unbiased record.
Actually...
Submitted by Becca (not verified) on September 28, 2007 - 5:43pm.
I'm no theologian or historian (but my dad is) and he tells me there are independent accounts in roman records (they were big on record keeping, kind like the Mos are) mentioning the J-man being tried...but I don't know any details. Next time I talk to the parental unit, I'll ask him.
regardless, you're right, the info MOST people have is only what his folowers chose to tell us, and then the pieces of that info the people who put the new testament together chose to include (and if one more "born again" tells me they were inspired by God to choose only the "true" books I'll puke) , etc. I agree with your point.
mormonism
Submitted by lil stevie (not verified) on October 1, 2007 - 5:43pm.
I have just discovered your site and wanted to comment. Of course, my first reaction was disgust and sadness for your poor, longsuffering wife. But, I suppose we all must have the free agency to make our own futons before we lie in them. I am still astonished, however, and at a complete loss to explain the ferocity of opposition the Mormons seem to engender from the apostate brethren.
I don't recall who said it but it seems almost unfailingly true, that one can leave the LDS church, but one cannot leave it alone.
As a missionary years ago, I baptized many converts from many religions, and never once did I witness even one of them return and attack their former faiths or attempt to revile those with whom they once enjoyed fellowship.
But, its seems that, without fail, those who leave The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints appear to be compelled to forever attack its adherents, leaders, and even family members that still believe.
The internet is full of blogs like yours each trying to outdo the next in sarcasm and nastiness toward the Church. Some of the critiques are downright violent, wishing all kinds of pain and torture upon its membership.
I have often thought of the reasons for this and find I am unable to explain it outside of the influence of Satan.
It cannot be that the persecutors believe our doctrines or dogma to be ridiculous, for we certainly do not believe things that are objectively more ridiculous than the entire concept of life-after-death, the Catholic belief in trans-substantiation, the protestant belief in the rapture, or the Buddhist belief in reincarnation. All of these beliefs and hundreds of others defy logic and provable, reproducible science. And yet, when the above mentioned adherents leave the fold, so to speak, they very seldom return to rend and tear the flock.
So, I pray for you and your family, even though I am certain that you would prefer I did not.
Thank you for your time.
sm
Why some Mormons can't leave it alone.
Submitted by hikerreese (not verified) on October 3, 2007 - 12:28am.
Yep that is it lil stevie! The influence of Satan. Persecution makes Mormons feel important but they haven't been actually oppressed since they left Nauvoo, so they invent it. The people on this blog are simply talking about how they feel and what they think. They are not trying to tar and feather anyone. Lots of people criticize the Catholic Church and most other faiths but most Mormons I know are so Mormon centered that they only notice criticism if it is directed at them. For example, I remember watching Sinead O'Connor rip up a photo of the Pope on national TV. That was great.
The Mormon church pretty wrecked a big part of my life but on a world scale the Church is an insignificant group of right wing fanatics. Apostates, regardless of faith, usually say what they think. Exmormons are particularly good at saying what we think because we are truly free. More free than a Mormon could ever imagine. Speaking against the Church isn't spite; at least not for me. It's freedom.
Besides Mormons are just so frickin easy to mock. By the way, I have been true to my wife for twenty one years of monogamous marriage. Joseph Smith could not have made such a claim. I am no longer a Mormon because it is a false doctrine that saps the life out of people and their common sense. Pray for me all you want. God is real but He isn't a Mormon.
So that's the moral high ground
Submitted by Bubs (not verified) on October 6, 2007 - 12:34am.
It must be lonely on that moral high ground of yours.
By the way, I have been true to my wife for twenty one years of monogamous marriage.
And some people can't for a myriad of reasons including abandonment, addiction (sexual or otherwise), or just plain stupidity. It happens.
Also, regarding Joe Smith not being able to claim that a faithful monogamous marriage, neither can the Pope, Moses, Abraham, etc. claim that. Or myself for that matter (unmarried).
Hard to respond...
Submitted by Pete on October 8, 2007 - 12:22pm.
lil stevie,
First of all, I find it interesting that you would find this post in any way at all an attack on your precious Mormonism. If anything, your reaction make my point rather than discounts it.
Secondly, what do you suppose it says about Mormonism if it is indeed true that so many of its former members are left with such a bad taste that they become vehement detractors?
Although, that's not much of a point on my part as it responds to your misplaced point. There are, in fact, a great number of former members of lots of different churches who found their experiences bad enough or abusive enough to be outspoken against them. Take any number of former-Catholics who have written books or made movies critical of the Holy See. Everyone from Galileo to Ben Affleck.
How about the numerous online sites run by former Scientologists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Mennonites and so on?
You said, "I have often thought of the reasons for this and find I am unable to explain it outside of the influence of Satan." You haven't thought very hard about it then. Perhaps another explanation is that many members of many churches (not just yours) actually have bad, painful and sometimes harmful experiences during their time as members. Maybe some of those people feel the need to help others avoid the same pain. Still others simply deal with the pain through sarcasm, anger and the company of others.
"It cannot be that the persecutors believe our doctrines or dogma to be ridiculous."
Well, yes, it can.
wasn't L Ron Hubbard fond of
Submitted by fuzzy turtle (not verified) on October 6, 2007 - 7:51am.
wasn't L Ron Hubbard fond of young men? Maybe that's who Jeffs is most like..??
Joseph Smith's "legal" troubles
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on October 8, 2007 - 7:31pm.
Did you know that Joseph Smith was literally "run out of town" for stealing horses,in Palmyra, NY? Yes, the same town he was given his glorious vision from the Angel Maroni for the tablets that later became the Book of Mormon! There is another bit of Mormon/Joseph Smith history that is not often told. And I know this because it is part of the history of the town I grew up in - Palmyra, NY (5th generation).
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Hello Everyone
I talked about this as well:
the parallel with Jesus in particular here.
Even if you assume that the gospels are essentially based on fact, there's still no reason to believe that Jesus's devoted followers -- writing long after his death -- reported accurately what the precise charges against him were.